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Ensign Sailing Forum

Rudder Build Questions
Robert Malt

Hello,


I am in the process of building a new rudder for the Ensign that I have recently purchased. I have been lucky that I have been able to trace a few rudders and compare what's left of mine to others. I'm confident that I have the shape and I plan on making a two piece rudder starting off with 8/4 South American mahogany. Here are my questions that I'm hoping someone could help out with.


1) Out of the few Ensign rudders that I have compared, I can't seem to find a constant thickness of the highest thickness of the rudder. I understand the class rules regarding shaping the rudder to the trailing edge but I can't determine what thickness I should start with. My current rudder piece that is left on the shaft is 1.75 inches. I measured one today that was 1.25 inches and I measured one that was just built by a boat yard that was 1 inch at its max thickness. I'm thinking of just going with 1.5 inches and calling it a day. Anyone know what it should be?


2) The bolts and lags in the rudder, are they bronze or brass? Does anyone know a good place online to get new bolts that size with that shape head?


3) Being a two piece rudder I'm going to get creative by using threaded rod and nuts on each end of a mortise in the wood to secure the two pieces from ever separating apart compared to the original drifts that must have been used. Can I get away with just saturating the rudder in epoxy without using fiberglass cloth? I'm concerned with trying to cloth that tight of a radius with cloth.


Thanks for any input!


Bob

Mucho Gusto

1968 Ensign #1377

Tim Moll
Use silicon bronze rod, you can get 1’ lengths on line
Yes two layers of cloth each side and use epoxy resin. It dosnt cost that much more and will adhere to the wood much better. Wear gloves and eye protection.
Best
Tim
#1601

Sent from my iPad

Jonathan Simpson

Bob,


The original rudders we're/are 3 piece rather than 2, but if you find wood straight, flat, and wide enough, do it with 2.


I suggest starting with 5/4 rather than 8/4. You'll save a lot of sanding! Your shaft is 1", so that's your minimum thickness, but glassing up from that will get you back to 1.25".


In the original, the first piece was screwed to the shaft top and bottom. The middle holes let bolts through to hold the second board. There are adjustment pockets in the middle of the second, probably filled. The third piece was held to the second with both drift pins and screws.


When you measure to template, don't forget that the first piece is routed out to mate to the shaft. If you overlook this, your rudder will end up too small.


Good luck, and do post pictures when you finish!


Jon Simpson

E160 Elan

Robert Malt

Hi Jon,


That is interesting to learn about the minimum thickness. I am very fortunate to have a full woodshop at my house and a local hardwood shop that sells just about every species of wood. I already have a wide enough board to make this out of two pieces. I went with 8/4 thinking I needed to duplicate what I had on there which was 1.75. I do have a surface planner so I will be able to take it down to whatever I decide to go with. It took me a few days of searching online but I was able to find a good enough router bit for the .5 inch radius on the first piece. I will post some pictures as I get started!


Bob

Bud Brown
Bob,

It may be asking a bit, but if you'll document the project with a few photos and an article, we will get it up on the ECA website and show others what the project entails.

Good luck with your project, in any case.

--
Best regards,

Bud Brown
ECA Commodore

Joseph & Anne Graul

As long as we are on the subject of rudders, I have a replacement rudder ready to be installed but I am unsure what steps need to be taken. Is there a step by step procedure with pictures to help me? Is the tiller head simple to be removed? I know the intermediate strap needs to be removed but am uncertain if I can lift the rudder out of the shoe. There is a one inch+ gap at the top of rudder. How high does the boat need to be off the ground in order to pull the shaft out? Are the strap and shoe held by pop rivets? Is there a bearing around the rudder shaft that needs to be replaced? Old rudder and new rudder attached.

Jody Graul

PLEBE YEAR - 1217

Nahant MA

Edward Rose
Hello Joseph,
 
There is an interesting document you may find interesting in the Ensign Archives that talks about replacing the rudder.
 
 
Article #18 goes into detail on how to replace the rudder. ... I've also attached the pdf
 
Ed
#1484 "Eraser"
 
In a message dated 4/20/2021 11:36:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, ensignsailing@ensignclass.com writes:
 
Posted by: Joseph & Anne Graul on 4/20/2021 at 11:35 AM
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Reply to forum at ensignsailing@ensignclass.com
If this message contains inappropriate content, you can report the message online

As long as we are on the subject of rudders, I have a replacement rudder ready to be installed but I am unsure what steps need to be taken. Is there a step by step procedure with pictures to help me? Is the tiller head simple to be removed? I know the intermediate strap needs to be removed but am uncertain if I can lift the rudder out of the shoe. There is a one inch+ gap at the top of rudder. How high does the boat need to be off the ground in order to pull the shaft out? Are the strap and shoe held by pop rivets? Is there a bearing around the rudder shaft that needs to be replaced? Old rudder and new rudder attached.

Jody Graul

PLEBE YEAR - 1217

Nahant MA


Attachment(s):
Rudder.JPG (990.1 KB)
New_Rudder.JPG (2.1 MB)
Edward Rose
Joseph,
 
It appears the link doesn't work. You can find the article in the ECA Library under Nifty ideas/Projects, Collection of 43 Interesting and Useful Ensign Articles
 
Ed
 
 

From: ensignsailing@ensignclass.com
To: edvgs@aol.com
Sent: 4/20/2021 1:12:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
Subject: re: [Ensign Sailing] Rudder Build Questions

Posted by: Edward M Rose on 4/20/2021 at 1:11 PM
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Reply directly to Edward M Rose at edvgs@aol.com
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Hello Joseph,
 
There is an interesting document you may find interesting in the Ensign Archives that talks about replacing the rudder.
 
 
Article #18 goes into detail on how to replace the rudder. ... I've also attached the pdf
 
Ed
#1484 "Eraser"
 
In a message dated 4/20/2021 11:36:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, ensignsailing@ensignclass.com writes:
 
Posted by: Joseph & Anne Graul on 4/20/2021 at 11:35 AM
View/reply online
Reply to forum at ensignsailing@ensignclass.com
If this message contains inappropriate content, you can report the message online

As long as we are on the subject of rudders, I have a replacement rudder ready to be installed but I am unsure what steps need to be taken. Is there a step by step procedure with pictures to help me? Is the tiller head simple to be removed? I know the intermediate strap needs to be removed but am uncertain if I can lift the rudder out of the shoe. There is a one inch+ gap at the top of rudder. How high does the boat need to be off the ground in order to pull the shaft out? Are the strap and shoe held by pop rivets? Is there a bearing around the rudder shaft that needs to be replaced? Old rudder and new rudder attached.

Jody Graul

PLEBE YEAR - 1217

Nahant MA


Attachment(s):
Rudder.JPG (990.1 KB)
New_Rudder.JPG (2.1 MB)

Attachment(s):
43_Interesting_and_Useful_Ensign_Articles.pdf (5.5 MB)
Robert Brandt

Ensign Spars website sells new rudder shoes if you want to take a look.

https://shop.ensignspars.com/collections/ensign-specific/products/rudder-shoe-bronze


Robert Brandt

#261

Vic Roberts

Joseph,

 

The link posted by Ed Rose for the rudder replacement article does not work for me.  Here are instructions for accessing the article.

 

Go to Library in the left hand menu, then Nifty Ideas/Projects, and then “Collection of 43 Interesting and Useful Ensign Articles.”  Scroll down in that PDF for Article 18.

 

Vic Roberts

#2032

 

Robert Malt

If you sand that strap on one side you will see the heads of the two pins. They are just solid pins that almost have a slight rivet head. Just hit the pins out with a punch that is a bit smaller. They will drive out the other end. Mine didn't take much to come out. The tiller comes off easy but don't lose the key that keeps it from spinning. Once you lift the rudder up a bit out of the bottom support it does need to come straight down a good amount. I would say at least 2 feet or so. I don't think there are any bearings to replace.

Chris Anderson

Robert, Are you saying that you could remove the rudder without removing the rudder foot? Just the strap and then you had the clearance to lift it free of the foot then ease it back down and out? I'm fixing to do the same job on #71 and would appreciate taking as little apart as possible.

Thanks


Chris Anderson

Robert Malt

Hi Chris,


That is correct, I did NOT have to remove the lower rudder foot. Good luck!

Chris Anderson

Thanks! I'll let yall know how it works out.

Joseph & Anne Graul

I am in the same situation and have asked this question whether I can remove the rudder without removing the rudder shoe.   I understand that this is possible.

Jody Graul

PLEBE YEAR – 1217

Nahant MA

 

Zeke Durica
You can remove the rudder without removing the shoe but it's not the correct way to replace it. 
You will have to either remove part of the top of the rudder possibly 3/4 of an inch. The racing specs call for a 1/4 clearance. To get that you will have to rebuild it back up to make it proper. 
A lot of work to cut and rebuild not to mention the difficulty to re-install it. 

Take the shoe out and use 1/4 inch flat head bolts countersink one side and tap threads on the other when replacing the rivets. 

Zeke



Robert Malt

Hi Zeke,


I'm not sure if I follow you. As I read the class specs it calls for a gap no less than .5 inches. Where do you get you 1/4 from?


The rudder may be fiberglassed (using cloth and resin) as long as the rudder dimensions are not changed. The gap between the top of the rudder and the hull shall not be less than 1/2".

Robert Panico

Hello - I'm in the process of removing the rudder to make repairs and re-fiberglass it. I had to grind off a little of the top of the rudder to get enough clearance for the rudder shaft to clear the shoe. I have not dropped it yet. I have a couple of choices to get enough clearance for the shaft to slide down through the hull. ( dig a hole, Hoist, jack the trailer up) Here is my question: These are old boats and from the number of threads I am seeing on rudder rep[airs / rebuilds the rudders need attention. The Class rules calls for a 1/2 inch clearance from the top of the rudder to the bottom of the hull. Is the 1/2 inch clearance there to keep the shaft from popping out of the shoe? Not sure how much attention these things will require in the future but it would be a lot easier to service the rudder if you could get it on and off a little easier. I'm getting too old for for some of this stuff! HA!

Zeke Durica
Yes and the strap will prevent it from popping out but if you cut off the top it should be replaced later. You might find it's tricky putting it back without removing the shoe. 

Zeke

Robert Panico

Thanks Zeke.

I’ll re-glass the top after I put the rudder back. That I can do in place. That should give me the clearance I need to clear the shoe a little more easily. Any idea of how much clearance you need from the bottom of the rudder to clear the hull when I drop it through?   

 

Zeke Durica
There is a bushing and it's usually at the top of the rudder tube but sometimes they break off and sink down in the tube. You need to get it out and replace it once you have the rudder back in place. 
If not you will have a very difficult time realigning the shaft in the tube and it sounds like you are going to jury rig a way to remove it. Be careful the boat doesn't fall. If your trailer permits it try backing it over a drop-off spot like a curb or ditch under the rudder. Our trailers don't permit this in less you put the boat way aft on the trailer, to begin with. 

Zeke

 

Robert Panico

Rudder is out. It’s my backyard getting a sun tan ( and drying out!). I was able to jack and block the rear of the trailer up with the hitch attached to my truck and had plenty of clearance.  It’s a dual axis trailer. I did take a little bit off the top of the rudder – which I will replace after the other repairs are completed and the rudder is in back in place.  It actually came out  quite easily. I moved the boat back a little on the trailer so the shoe was clear of the trailer and had plenty of room to drop it.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the bushing! It’s still in the shaft and appears to be intact.  It’s @ 4- 5 inches down from where the rudder tube comes up from the aft seat. What is the desired location of the bushing? I would think at the top of rudder tube just below where it exits the aft seat. ????

 

FYI: I rebuilt a boat called a Raven a few years ago. A old 24 foot planning hull boat. Went like a bat out of hell. Not too many of them were made (tended to capsize a bit too much! ) Wish there was an Ensign type forum to get glean info from back then. Pretty much went by feel and made it up as I went! HA!   

 

Thanks Zeke!

 

Robert Panico

Zeke -Got the bushing out. It's in good shape.

I am assuming it goes at the top of the rudder tube after you put the rudder back. ???

Zeke Durica
Yes it should go at the top. I think it’s main purpose is to prevent water from coming up the tube when your really going fast. Might reduce vibrations on the shaft too. 

Zeke 

Robert Malt

I'm getting to the point where I will be ready to fiberglass my new rudder. I still have a bit more shaping to go. I have worked with epoxy resin and cloth many times before but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how to proceed with glassing the rudder. Do you work with one sheet of cloth and then pray for the best as you fold it over to the other side? Part of me was thinking about cutting out the shape of the rudder and then treating it like two sides.


Any insight?

Edward Rose
Hello Robert,
 
Glass each side separately, then come back in with lighter weight tapes to wrap the edges, overlapping onto the main glass. I put a 1/4" radius on my trailing edge, so it's no different than a fillet and takes the lighter glass nicely with no pop up. Once everything is filled and fared, you won't be able to see the transition. This is My 2 cents worth. Wiser heads may have much better advise!
 
Ed
Eraser 1484
 
In a message dated 6/16/2021 10:49:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, ensignsailing@ensignclass.com writes:
 
Posted by: Robert P Malt on 6/16/2021 at 10:50 AM
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I'm getting to the point where I will be ready to fiberglass my new rudder. I still have a bit more shaping to go. I have worked with epoxy resin and cloth many times before but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how to proceed with glassing the rudder. Do you work with one sheet of cloth and then pray for the best as you fold it over to the other side? Part of me was thinking about cutting out the shape of the rudder and then treating it like two sides.

 

Any insight?

Robert Malt

I didn't think this day would come but today completes my rudder build with installing it back onto the boat. I was able to get the rudder back on without removing the bottom shoe. Time to get her in the water! As a personal reflection, I don't think I ever want to build another rudder again.


John Cutler
Great job👍

 

 

John and Paula Cutler 


James Knape
I am replacing my rudder on my ensign right now, rule book calls for a 1/2 inch  or more clearance between top of rudder and hull. Even with a half inch gap it would be dicey to get rudder off without removing shoe. A 3/4 gap would be enough gap to remove rudder, but you do have to torture it out with a little bending of the shaft and maybe a tap with rubber hammer. Depending wether you have lots of west in the rudder besrings. I recommend removing the shoe, cause that's what I did lol. I did mine because 50 years ago the rudder shaft was glue in by Pearson off center. 

Robert Panico

Hey guys,


I've been following the rudder thread as I anticipated having to do a "little" repair! Well it may have to be a bit larger repair than that!

I would like to try and barrier coat the rudder in place. ???? Any comments? I think the rudder is ok but the fiberglass has separated from the wood in spots.

I plan to grind off the peeling fiberglass and take it down to bare wood and also expose the strap and boot. From there I will make the decision to repair in place or remove.

I read the article in the nifty Ideas on the rudder removal. seems fairly straight forward. Any comments or suggestions on removing the rudder?

Also, there is some sort of material on the leading edge of the exposed rudder shaft. Does that need to resealed /covered?

Seems that anything you use on will come off.

Thanks,

Bob

Robert Malt

Are you talking about removing the rudder from the rudder shaft? They don't come off easy without damaging the rudder and if you were to get it off I don't think that you would be able to securely reattach it to the shaft. This is just me but if I had to do an in-place rudder repair I think I would grind everything down to wood like you said. I would then use Totalboat's penetrating epoxy thinned with alcohol and seal up the wood. If I didn't want to use cloth again I would just make a fairing compound with MAS epoxy mixed with phenolic microballoons and a little silica to coat the complete rudder and sand smooth. I would even think about cutting some cloth for the sides of the rudder and epoxy that in place before the fairing compound.

Robert Panico

Thanks Robert.

I just finished grinding the glass off and the wood is in good shape. I caught the issue early. What you suggested was what I was thinking of doing. I’m going to repair the rudder in place as well. Don’t really need to remove it at this point. The bronze / brass shaft looks to be in good shape too. Someone had tried to get some fiberglass around it. It just peeled off. Looks like they blended the glassing job of the rudder into the shaft which I think was the cause of the problem as the seal was poor. After I get a good seal on the rudder with the epoxy I’ll just bottom paint the shaft. Really just the first year I’ve had the boat. Bought it 2 years ago but an injury kept me from sailing it but 3 times. It’s been social distancing in my driveway for 2 years! I’m going to vaccinate it with the bottle of Rum and go sailing!

 

Dennis Nixon
When I decided to strip the bottom of #1661 of about thirty years of ablative bottom paint to enable me to use my favorite bottom coating, Coppercoat, I was surprised to find that under all the paint was an unsealed mahogany rudder, thankfully in really good shape.  No idea if it is original or a replacement.  The idea of bare wood with just ablative paint on it scared me, so I let it dry out very well and then put on two coats of West Systems epoxy.  The first coat really soaked in, and the second looked like a nice coat of varnish on top of that.

I then applied another type of barrier coat on the now pristine hull, and spent a day rolling on 4-5 coats of Coppercoat, which is a two-part epoxy mixed with very fine pure copper powder, applying it to both the hull and rudder.  On my previous boat, a J29, I got about eight seasons of use with that product on Narragansett Bay with nothing more than wiping off slime and a light sanding every spring.  The total effort of stripping, sanding and recoating was admittedly a big deal, (I should have had the yard soda blast the hull!) but I really like the long-term lifespan of the product.  And that mahogany rudder is now sealed in six coats of epoxy!

See coppercoatusa.com for details...

WIND #1661

Dennis Nixon
Professor Emeritus of Marine Affairs
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, RI 02881




Robert Panico

I may have to remove the rudder from my boat to repair it. I have exposed the rudder strap and shoe. The strap appears to be in place with 2 studs that were peened over. The Shoe looks to have screws holding it in place. I'd like some insight as to how best to remove the rudder and getting in back into place after it is repaired. I had hoped ( and still may be successful) in repairing in place but it keeps raining! Having a hard time keeping it dry! I might be easier to take it off , dry it out , repair and put back. Comments please. Thanks.

John Cutler
Robert

Look up Zeke Durica’s advice on reattaching rudder in this same string on the forum.

John Cutler

 

 

John and Paula Cutler 

Robert Panico

Thanks. Does the shoe need to come off - or just the strap ?

Is there enough clearance to lift the rudder shaft out of the shoe once the hardware for the tiller and upper portion of the rudder shaft is removed to lift it up and clear the shaft from the shoe?

Ward Woodruff
Remove the tiller head.
Remove the strap.
Turn the rudder to the side.
Lift the rudder shaft out of the shoe.
Lower the rudder and shaft out of the boat.
You might need to dig a hole to lower the assembly far enough to remove it from the boat.

Ward Woodruff
413-847-0620 cell
Robert Panico

Ward,

Thank you. I thought that there was a way to do it without removing the shoe!

We have a hoist at my club and the boat has lifting eyes so I’ll be able to get enough clearance.

Appreciate the Ensign Class support. The Forum and Library are great resources.

Bob Panico    

 

Zeke Durica
This is a much more involved explanation than I have time for right now. Maybe a phone call might be in order. 
Sorry, 

Zeke 

Robert Malt

Hi Bud,


I would be more than happy to create a document on doing this.

Bud Brown
Awesome!

You will help a lot of people by doing that!

Robert Malt

I am in the tech field so I decided to create a website for my projects that I'm working on. It is a work in progress (I'm not a web guy) but I wanted to use it to track my rudder progress.


Here is my first post regarding my rudder build

https://bobsprojects.org/2021/05/09/starting-the-rudder-build/


If you view it from your phone, it is best to view it with your phone tilted in landscape.


I hope to get this rudder done as soon as possible so I'll be updating my posts often on my site.


https://bobsprojects.org


As I progress with this site it will be easy to just select any posts related to my Pearson Ensign or even the rudder build since I'm using post categories. I will also give updates here and answer any questions.




Vic Roberts

Thanks  Bob.

 

Vic Roberts

 

Robert Malt

I made some great progress on my rudder build today. Take a look at my post from today.


https://bobsprojects.org/2021/05/15/time-to-get-to-work/

Bud Brown
Way cool, Bob!

Robert Malt

I had another great work day in the shop today. I'm thinking I'll be able to get this boat in the water by the end of June.


First post today was working on the rudder bolts and wood screws

https://bobsprojects.org/2021/05/16/rudder-bolts-wood-screws/


The second post was working on how I'm attaching the rear half of the rudder.

https://bobsprojects.org/2021/05/16/attaching-the-rear-half-of-the-rudder/





James Knape

Nice work on your rudder. Decided to do mine also and found some flaws that I am not surprised with, and I suspected many years ago.


Basically the factory glassed in the rudder tube in the cockpit off center by about a 1/4 inch. It's always had friction but not to bother steering. What it means is the bottom of the rudder lines up perfectly on center, but the top is off center so water flow on one side hits a bump, the other side hits a hollow. I want to go faster and have water flow with least resistance which means getting rudder blade dead center.


I will be moving the top bronze bearing on the seat to where it belongs, by filling the old holes and drilling new and sanding a little bit of clearance on the rudder tube.


What I found that's a mystery is a plastic sleeve bearing loose in the rudder tube. I can't tell if it belongs up high near the seat so that it prevents metal to metal contact between the top of the shaft and the bronze bearing on the seat. Or if it goes at the bottom of the rudder tube so that it supports the approximate middle of the shaft. My thoughts is that it belongs near the bottom off the rudder tube so that the shaft is supported by three points.


Just wondering if someone who has there rudder out could look in with a bright flashlight to see where this sleeve bearing belongs.

Thanks in advance Jim Knape Lickety Split 1576









James Knape

Picture of the loose sleeve bearing. About 1 inch tall , 1.5 outer diameter. Inner diameter you can see how badly it is worn on one side only. Pretty darn sure this belongs at the bottom of the tube. Perhaps I can mold a new bearing in place from epoxy.

Gay De Hart

What a fabulous detailed blog on your project!

Thank you!

 

Robert Malt

Do you see any issues if I wanted to keep the rudder 1.25 inches at its thickest point before glassing? For some reason I feel a little better keeping it on the thicker side. Like I said my original piece is 1.75 inches thick.

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