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Ensign Sailing Forum

VOTE NO ON Rule II.13.B AND VOTE EARLY

Hello all Ensign Sailors,


I've been staying quiet on this and have enjoyed the varying opinions, but a few recent posts have prompted me to chime in. Some are suggesting that we delay this vote to allow time to review it more AND others believe that this would give some people an advantage. I would like to address these two points:


  1. This discussion has been on the rule committee's desk for many years. We already updated the rule once (maybe 8-10 years ago) to allow newer digital compasses as long as they didn't have the ability to do certain things. For the last 2-3 years we have had class members ask us to review the rules again to allow for newer digital compasses that are on the market. So this has been discussed at length and reviewed.
  2. Now that technology and instruments have advanced further we are now just looking to be able to add more options and devices, as long as the ability to do certain things is turned off. No rules are changing, just being tweaked to allow more and better devices. When following the rules, no one is getting any advantage over anyone else. And, as many have pointed out, if people wanted to cheat, they can easily do that already with apps on the phones or tablets or computers etc.


I'm happy to clarify any of this further if that is not clear. If this vote goes through and the new (or differently worded I should say) rule passes, when following the ECA Rules, nothing is changing.


Doug Burtner

Calyce 740

ECA Rules Committee


Zeke, et al

To clarify proposed rule does not obligate anyone to upgrade (spend more money) to the new technology and there would be no competitive advantage / disadvantage.  We already allow digital compasses and digital speed. 

Therefore an all in one unit(Vakaros) is not is not breaking the rules as they stand when in an established class compliant mode.  The only change with the proposed rule states the newer digital options must be constrained to meet class rule requirements while racing and maintain a log that shows they were in "class mode" while racing. 

In a Corinthian sport it is insulting that some feel New technology means that someone is cheating.  

There is no need to test the new technology under racing conditions.  The Vakaros unit  in class mode will only allow compass heading, start timer and speed...the same information the class currently allows.  

New technology is not required to complete by all, if you want to sail with a dial compass and analog knot meter that's still fine.  So no additional cost for existing members.  Therefore the point of losing established racers is moot.  

I for one do not see this  as a completely new rule as some are stating.  It is a small clarification to an already established rule...saying any new technology has meet class rules and produce a log if challenged. 

Last, I trust the class rules committee has already held thorough discussion on the proposed rule revision language. We should expect they are looking out for the best historic and future interest of the class, cost controls, and the fairness of competition.  


Respectfully,
Jeff Hagman
Starlight Express
1478
















Sorry Zeke,

 

I know Bob already sent out the Proxy Vote link but here it is again:

 

https://ensignclass.com/content.aspx?page_id=331&club_id=323935&item_id=40144

 

Vic

 

The link to vote and information to attend the annual meeting was sent out by Commodore Durrschmidt on January 16th. Pat Metzler, Vulcan 634


Included message:

Happy New Years! As noted in the email from December below are the instructions to join the Zoom Meeting On January 27th at 7pm East Coast Time. As a reminder we will conduct a vote on 3 rule changes to Part II of the ECA rules.  

 

https://ensignclass.com/docs.ashx?id=1670258

 

We will conduct the vote for the rules at the meeting using the ZOOM Polling feature. If you can not attend the meeting you may vote by proxy using the following link.

 

Link to Vote by Proxy:  https://ensignclass.com/content.aspx?page_id=331&club_id=323935&item_id=40144

 

Thanks so much and I look forward to seeing you all on the 27th.

the link  to proxy vote is an email from Robin copied below ..... I voted YES x3 .   Technology is progress and the proposal looks reasonable.   After all - i dont think the electronic instruments really would have that much impact -  the main instruments will always be our eyes and ears on the race course, and of course the regatta timer watch with the colored dots is nice to have.  So I would go further and allow all gizmos any ways whatever with no restrictions.  I think it would be nice to have something buzz you  if you are over the line!
Regards
Anthony

Ensign Class Members,

 

Below are the instructions to join the Zoom Meeting on January 27th at 7pm East Coast Time.  As a reminder we will conduct a vote on 3 rule changes to Part II of the ECA rules.  

 

https://ensignclass.com/docs.ashx?id=1670258

 

We will conduct the vote for the rules at the meeting using the ZOOM Polling feature.  If you can not attend the meeting you may vote by proxy using the following link.  Per Vic's earlier email Proxy voting will be discontinued prior to the meeting.

 

Link to Vote by Proxy:  https://ensignclass.com/content.aspx?page_id=331&club_id=323935&item_id=40144

 


On Sun, Jan 25, 2026 at 5:39 PM Zeke Durica (zeke.durica@gmail.com) <ensignsailing@ensignclass.com> wrote:
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Good question I can’t find it either. I’m sure I’m missing something both Elizabeth and can’t find the proxy. 
Vic can you guide us? 

Zeke. 

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--
<< sent from my gOOgLEbOOk >>

Anthony Aylward
5912 Munson Court
Falls Church, VA 22041.
tel.  240 603 8008.
I agree Zeke. Why rush to a decision when we need more evaluation and data?
I can't see local fleets adopting expensive electronics, which if the rule change was implemented, could make a regionals a race of the have and the have nots.
Scott Mason
Fleet 5 Newport Capt'n

On Sun, Jan 25, 2026, 2:52 PM Zeke Durica (zeke.durica@gmail.com) <ensignsailing@ensignclass.com> wrote:
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I agree with most of what Commodore Brown has said. Our class has always been cautious about adopting new rules, and that caution has often served us well.

I support new technology, but I don’t think we’ve had enough time to fully understand or test these instruments under race conditions. I’m still learning about them and would appreciate the chance to see one and try it out before making a decision.

In the past, we approved the Blade without enough input or testing, and it took years to fix the problems that followed. I don’t want to repeat that mistake.

Some have said we might lose racers who want to be first to use this technology. I’m more worried about losing racers who see it as unnecessary or burdensome.

Why not allow more time for demonstrations and discussion, and then hold a vote later at a special meeting? Sometimes slower is better.


You have received this message as a member of: Ensign Class Association
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Good question I can’t find it either. I’m sure I’m missing something both Elizabeth and can’t find the proxy. 
Vic can you guide us? 

Zeke. 

I agree with Zeke. This rule was proposed without prior discussion with the ECA membership. Also, the flurry of postings on the forums indicates that many Ensign sailors are not aware of the technology or familiar enough with it.

The Rule Committee should do a deeper investigation into the adoption of such instruments and inform Ensign sailors so that we can make an informed vote.

Nck Lubar
Ensing #1556
Fleet #29 Cleveland Ohio

Well stated Zeke.
Where is the link to vote?

I agree with most of what Commodore Brown has said. Our class has always been cautious about adopting new rules, and that caution has often served us well.

I support new technology, but I don’t think we’ve had enough time to fully understand or test these instruments under race conditions. I’m still learning about them and would appreciate the chance to see one and try it out before making a decision.

In the past, we approved the Blade without enough input or testing, and it took years to fix the problems that followed. I don’t want to repeat that mistake.

Some have said we might lose racers who want to be first to use this technology. I’m more worried about losing racers who see it as unnecessary or burdensome.

Why not allow more time for demonstrations and discussion, and then hold a vote later at a special meeting? Sometimes slower is better.


Bob,


IMO the rules committee (volunteers I might add...thankyou!) did a great job of writing the proposed rule change for 11.13.B to align with the current Ensign rule on electric compasses and instruments. The proposed rule change only allows newer digital compass and instruments, regardless of the brand to be used legally when limited and in Ensign Class Complaint mode while racing which essentially allows start timer, heading, heal angle?? and speed....all other features must be deactivated while racing. The newer units (Vakaros) save a data log to produce as evidence of compliance should someone be thought to cheating during racing times. The data log has date and time stamps of what mode (ensign class, thistle class, Lightning class etc) that the unit was operating in for the day / time of racing. Like I shared, the current Ensign rules allow any rule infringement to be challenged via a protest being filed and hearing being held. Again this could be for any rule that a boat, skipper or crew is alleged to be breaking while racing Ensigns in local, regional or national events.


As per Steve's contribution, I do not believe anyone pushing for this rule change is asking for the rule to be changed to allow for "advanced features" such as pinging the start line, VMG, race sense or other features. Please note, I do agree with you that the class could set up a committee to look into the new technology, investigate the more advanced features for possible future use in our regional and national class regattas. Why??? I have heard many positive stories, read stories etc of how much easier it is to get races off in larger fleets. PRO officers find it helpful so they can log more races instead of recalled starts. The start timer can be started by the race committee and sent to all boats, plus skippers are notified right away if they are over the line early...all which make for better racing.


I recommend passing the proposed rule as it is written at this time since it offers no competitive advantage over what is currently allowed. If required, a data log can prove it was in Class mode or not during racing. Should anyone be found guilty of breaking the rule, then a DSQ is appropriate for the races involved. Hopefully it would take only one disciplinary action to correct the issue, but if not, repeat offenders can face harsher penalties from the class. As my cost analysis showed, for the same data input (heading speed and timer) the Vakaros is the most cost effective instrument package available. Also newcomers to the Ensign class who might already have a Vakaros from other boats they race should not be burdened to invest in alternate technology just to race Ensigns when the unit they have can be made compliant, and proven to be compliant. I agree with Steve, lets get more racers, especially competitive racers, racing Ensigns. Additionally people who sail in other one design classes would be able to utilize one tool across the variety of boats they might sail.

Thank you to the Rules Committee for this rule change consideration, they did a great job of keeping the current rules regarding compasses, speedos, instruments intact while recognizing there are newer digital options available when set to comply with the Ensign class rules. This rule change does not force anyone to spend money upgrading their boat if they don't want to and it does not put anyone at a competitive advantage/disadvantage. I for one want to keep the Corinthian, historic one design aspect of the Ensign Class to be maintained and this rule change, as currently proposed does nothing to harm Ensign Racing. I ask everyone consider voting yes.



Jeff Hagman

Starlight Express 1478





There's been a lot of good discussion about the proposed rule update regarding electronic devices. I thought I'd provide the perspective on the Rules Committee thinking. I'll use the first person, because although the committee agreed on all the rule change proposals, I don't want to speak too much for the other members. FIrst, I see the primary mission of the Rules Committee to be ensuring fair competition and controlling costs, both of which I feel the proposed rule change does. The rule update, as written, does not change the rules of the game at all and provides no advantage or disadvantage to anyone. The issue of cheating is mostly moot given the wide availability of many phone apps that make it easy to cheat if someone is so inclined (which I believe/hope Ensign sailors are not). Yes, having a device mounted on the mast out in the open makes it somewhat easier. However, it would be somewhat obvious to see if boats are pinging the ends of the line. Position (not that useful, I think, without mark positions) and VMG would be the two pieces of prohibited data that would be difficult to see if someone is using without looking at their log. However, I think the log gives us a reasonable procedure to, in the words of Reagan, "trust and verify."


The impetus for this change were multiple requests that came from several sailors, partciularly leading up to Nationals. There were sailors using the Vakaros in other fleets that wanted to use their device on the Ensign rather than buying a new one for Nationals. To me, it's not a good message for the fleet to send to esentiallly say, "You can't use the device because we're worried you might cheat." Then they say, "But I can show you our log and prove we're not cheating." Then we say, "But we don't want to be bothered to figure out how to read your log." I do get that there are procedural and "awkwardness" issues with requesting to see logs, but my feeling is this wouldn't be a common issue and has been handled by other classes. I think doing whatever we can to encourage more boats on the line is more important.


All that said, I'm just trying to explain the Rules Committee thinking, not really lobbying for the rule change. I see our mission as serving the class, not pushing unwanted rules. So whatever the class decides is fine with me.


Steve Heinzelman

Elmo, #612

Vice Commodore of Rules

Given the amount of messages that circulated on the Forum since my initial post, it looks as if there is a lot more to understand about this potential rule change. If the people on the Forum are just learning about the potential for electronic devices to be used at Ensign Regional and National Championships, perhaps we need a pause. More investigation as to how such devices could help both skippers and race committees seems appropriate.  


This rule change should be tabled for now. The Rules Committee can investigate the technologies available to draft a new rule that may better address current concerns and needs along with future opportunities. I recommend tabling this proposed rule change and bringing it back to the ECA membership after a more thorough analysis.


Bob Conkey Sea III

I just have to say I have learned a ton about the data and devices available and what other classes are doing or not doing from you all in the last few days which is fantastic! Thank you so much!


Robin

Thanks Bud!


Here is cost information for those racers who choose to use instruments, it proves for those who are simply looking for heading and speed data that the Vakaros Edge is the most cost effective option....plus the Vakaros units have way more capability than a dial compass and speed puck for those who sail in other less restrictive one-design classes or on other smaller keel boats. What I did not factor in is the cost of a digital watch for start timing. And for those seat of the pants sailors....I am not sure how much you spend on your pants, or lifelong calibration of said seat. Sailing on...


I am supporting the rule update, 11.13.B and Ensign Class allowing the use of the either Vakaros unit because they can be set to class compliant mode for racing where other competitors, PRO's, judges etc can can verify class compliance if there is a question. Any cheaters can be appropriately disqualified as they should be if they break any calls rules. I currently have (at the moment) a Micro-Tacktik digital compass from 1997. Every spring since 1997 it shockingly wakes up and I realize one spring it won't wake up. For those who don't know me, I am newer to the Ensign Class (as is Mike Vining) and I race in various one design classes and would like to only purchase one device instead of multiple devices for the boats I compete on. I am not after the class to allow all the "fancy features", require Race sense, or others boats to upgrade the instruments they already have.


The Vakaros when in class mode would offer no competitive advantages over the dial compasses or Micro Tacktik compass when used with a knot meter or speedpuck. The Vakaros, in class mode can be made to meet the class rule, whereas (in my interpretation) the Race-Master does not have a way to limit functions and is not class compliant.


I feel the Ensign Class allowing the use of a Vakaros does not change Corinthian, historic nature of racing Ensigns since it can be made complaint to the class rule, can be verified in compliance, and is the most cost effective ALL IN ONE Instrument.


I am sure based on this thread that there will be more discussion on this topic during the annual meeting. I am a YES for this change.....unfortunately I will not be on the zoom meeting because of a family commitment but will cast my proxy vote yes.


Respectively,


Jeff Hagman

Starlight Express

1478

                                        

 West Marine $ 549.99

https://www.raymarine.com/en-us/our-products/marine-instruments/racing-instruments/t060-micro-compass

Features: Start timer and Compass


Micronet Race Master T070 image number 0 West Marine $924.99

https://www.raymarine.com/en-us/our-products/marine-instruments/racing-instruments/t070-race-master-compass

Features Compass, Wind, Line Bias, Timer


Dial Compass w/ Speedpuck $775.00

RayMarine Micro Tacktik w/ Speedpuck $ 1,050.00

RayMarine Tacktik RaceMaster w/ Speedpuck $1,425.00

Vakaros Atlas 2 $1,249.00

Vakaros Edge $750.00  

***** Both units can be set to class compliant mode, offering start timer, compass heading and speed all in one unit. 

**** Both units offer more functionality for sailors who race in other fleets. Feel free to check out the capability of each unit on their website: https://www.vakaros.com/


From Vakaros Website:

Mar 11, 2025

What is Class Compliance?

We get it - different classes have different rules. Some allow a full range of functionality from an instrument, including pinging, GPS readouts, and connecting external sensors. Some are locked down to just a compass and a timer, or perhaps even less. 

At Vakaros, we never tell a class what to allow - but we do always strive to make our instruments comply, either by letter or spirit, with any given class rule. Want to learn more? Read on for three important lessons about class compliance.

The Atlas 2 and Atlas Edge have Fully Scalable Capabilities

How can you take the same device from a Lightning regatta to a J/70 event? Scale what capabilities are allowed at a given time on your Atlas. Any feature, including GPS input, DTL, external sensor connectivity, and even magnetic heading, can be turned on or off. And, when a sensor is turned off, any Atlas 2 or Atlas Edge creates a locked log file showing what functionality was available for a given time period. So, if questions ever come up, you can ensure that a given feature was not available when you say it wasn't.


Some Classes have Verified Class Legal Profiles

In most cases, our class compliant profiles aim to comply with the published rules for a class. And in most cases, that's no issues. But, in some popular classes, we offer class compliant profiles verified by those class's measurers. These include the Lightning, Thistle, Dragon, Melges 15, and more. If you want to verify your class, put us in touch with your class measurer or technical chair - we're happy to make sure everything is squared away!


ALWAYS CHECK WITH YOUR CLASS MEASURER

Some classes have antiquated rules, or rules that the Atlas 2 or Atlas Edge may never meet. So, in any feature-restricted class, we always recommend checking with your class measurer or TC to determine if your device can be used while racing. The Atlas 2 or Atlas Edge are never legal for sanctioned racing, unless expressly permitted in classes including the ILCA, Snipe, 420, 470, 49er and FX, and Nacra 17. And, if the answer is that no, you cannot use your Atlas, start the discussion about legalization in your class - there's no reason you should have to own multiple devices to offer the same set of functions!


 

Mike and Jeff,


In all sincerity, thank you for your responses. You guys are assets to the class.


I want to make it clear that I am not espousing ‘for’ or ‘against’ any instrument, Vakaros or otherwise, but instead was just trying to impart a ‘high road’ perspective as to what is good for the class and for the development of individual sailors. 


I also race in the J24 Class, where the Vakaros and the associated ‘Race Sense’ system has been used in major championships for the past several years, so I have some experience to relate. For those who haven’t experienced it yet, Race Sense is pretty cool. If you’re OCS, it tells you instantly, with zero dependency on the timing of RC radio hails, failures, delays and errors. It also tells you when you’ve reached the three boat length zone at marks. Both of these developments… timely, accurate OCS calls and elimination of Room-at-the-Mark ‘discussions’… make our sport more precise and more enjoyable through the reduction of negative experiences like erroneous line calls, protests and ‘mark room’ disagreements. In super-large fleets this technology really shines, but certainly is applicable in fleets of any size.


Lorelei races with a Tactic digital compass. It provides magnetic heading, not COG. Currently, there is no speed data aboard other than the suds floating by, the feel of the boat and speed/point comparisons to competitors.  If the Vakaros (in class mode) is legal under the current rule, the only questions are compliance and enforcement. I trust my competitors to not cheat. I find it hard to believe that four sailors could sail together, cheat, be ok with that, and all of them be silent about it. I also think how sad it would be for someone to want to win an Ensign race so badly that they would place their reputations at such risk. Still, having instruments aboard that could cheat instills that possibility, and erode trust.  Vakaros users could be required to turn in their instruments for a log check after each race day or regatta, but that seems like a pain. I don’t believe such an additional workload and responsibility should be added to the judges or the race committee.  However, I also don’t believe in keeping the ECA in antiquity, either.


Finally, no one really realizes how hard it is to write rules. Every word in a rule is meaningful and every contingency must be explored. So, the next time any of us see or talk to Steve Heinzelman, or any of the members of the Rules Committee, we should thank them for their most excellent effort in a thankless, often criticized position. 




--
Best regards,

Bud Brown

281.468.6909 cell and text

A lot of Class Fathers whom I respect are weighing in here, ...against. I'm a newbie...


Bud I agree in general with your statements. And I'll bet you have some electronic compass on your boat. The instruments we allow don't change much for good Ensign sailors. Adding a Vakaros Atlas won't change it either, for anyone. And I have a handheld GPS or an iPad with Navionics that is a must when our local Ensign Fleet does the 3-5 Club distance races a year.


But what about someone who has nothing (like USA 101 at the moment) and has to buy something? My opinion is the Vakaros Atlas is the best instrument for the money on the market. The two models of Vakaros instruments are the current state of the art, and the best bang for the buck. My opinion is both Vakaros models with the advanced features turned off comply with the CURRENT Ensign rule and we really don't need this rule change. Further, for an Ensign owner in fleet 29 that isn't as fortunate as me to have multiple navigation possibilities, the fully featured Vakaros works for both Ensign Fleet racing AND for Club distance races. A relative deal.


The Vakaros is transportable, works well and is easy to read. I already told my son who is an avid Thistle sailor, he can borrow mine for Thistle Regattas, where the Vakaros is a requirement, if we change the rule. The facts I think I see are:


1) this piece of kit is going to get more widespread, not less

I wish I could order a well thought out Ensign specific mount from Ensign Spars

2) Other very conservative fleets (Thistle & Lightning) already allow it. We are NOT breaking new ground at all.

3) It in fact has a mode that is compliant with the current rule and trackable for compliance

4) It's simply the best instrument bang for the buck at the moment


I will make a simple prediction, (Frank, its a bourbon bet, winner picks) We will be discussing within 3 years with some PRO, the need to have the rentals available for some Ensign Regatta so the fleet can use Race Sense.


I think my vote and my money for USA 101 are a yes. Even if the Class votes this down, in the restricted mode it complies with our current rule.


Respectfully,


Mike Vining

USA 101

Second Chance


Bud, 

The proposed rule Change is not making a change to the current limitations of an electronic instrument as the rule reads now. 

The proposed rule change would be allowing newer technologies to be used only  when functioning in CLASS compliance mode. When in class compliant mode it will offer no, zero, zip advantages to anyone, front or back of the fleet.   Non of the more advanced features(time to line, OCS, heel angle, etc) have to be used and are not part of this discussion currently.   Class mode can be set to only allow timer, compass and speed.     I realize the world we live in has a lot of cheaters, but sailing is a Corinthian sport and we police ourselves on the water for the most part and if someone is expected of cheating the rule, and or discovered cheating then a protest can and should be filed.  The data log will tell if the instrument was indeed in class mode for the entirety of the races / event.  If found to not be in class mode The person can be and should be disqualified via a protest hearing.  I've seen several, meaning more than one competitor using the tactic racemaster instruments and my belief is these do not meet the current rule, nor can they be setup in a "class compliant mode".  So anyone who has one should understand they are most likely not legal by rule definition and could be challenged in a protest. 

As for one design rules, any of the current class rules that are broken regarding forestay length, boat weight, not carrying 30# at mast base when racing without motor, illegal rudder gap, safety equipment, etc.   if any boats, skipper or crew are breaking these rules, or are not meeting the intent of the rule, or a competitor is suspected of cheating then the  rules already allow that boat to be protested by another competitor or measurement committee person.  We should not be cheating...full stop. 

However, if people so choose they can sail by seat of the pants feeling, others might like instruments. That is an individual choice.  I for one do not think a timer, compass heading and speed are detracting from the class and IMO keeping the class antiquated is not the correct decision.  The class has already adapted newer materials for repairs, rudders etc, so this is along the same line allowing a newer instrumentation(in class mode) to be used.  

Jeff 
1478. 




IMO, we should preserve the Corinthian nature of ‘seat-of-the-pants’, amateur yacht racing in our class. Further, we should make it a publicized strength of the Ensign Class…a class where the intrinsic skills and talents necessary for excellence in the sport of yacht racing are developed and rewarded.

There are plenty of classes where pros can aspire for high-end recognition. The M15, J22, J24, J70, Etchells, Star, and Melges 24 classes already attract the pros. 

Let us attract and develop high quality amateurs… the families, the individuals who can feel when the median wind arrives, who can pre-feather a 3000 lb displacement sailboat into a puff enough to keep it flat without backwinding onto a tack, who can intercept wind on the water by timing a tack or a gybe.

It is who we are, it’s who we’ve always been, it’s a perfect fit for the design and we should embrace it.

If racing PHRF without instruments is holding back Ensign owners racing handicap under an Ensign OD rating, make instrumentation legal in our class rules when racing handicap.

The cost considerations of instruments pale against the meaningful skills of the sport and the branding of the Ensign Class.

IMO


--
Best regards,

Bud Brown

281.468.6909 cell and text

Mike Vining's post regarding data got me thinking about this more. We've had many many rules discussions about devices that should or should not be allowed and the current proposed rule change is another device driven discussion. But perhaps we should start thinking more about the data. What I mean is that you can get a Navionics subscription for about $50 per year on your phone that will give you your location on a chart and a lot of GPS data, way points, SOG, COG, VMG etc. If it were legal you could literally put your phone in a water proof case, velcro it to the bulkhead and have your crew monitor it for not much $'s. If it were legal I'd put in in a place where as a driver I can't read it as it would likely be too distracting for me but the crew, if they are up for it, could monitor it.


The top boats are already doing so many things right, really good starts, great driving and boat handling, solid crew work and tactically calling the shifts and lay lines accurately. I do not see it helping those guys much. But it might help others figure out what is fast (or it might distract them, as a competitor it's all good). One of the many cool things about Navionics is that you can record your track for review later and it would show if you did you any penalty turns, important for protest committees


Another aspect is that there are Ensigns that race in PHRF fleets and by making much of the naviagation data unavailable, or needing a specific device to access only the data that the class allows, we are making it harder for the PHRF racers to race their boat to the rating as other classes do not have as many or any restrictions like we do.


Having said all that I still do not know if I am voting yes or no on this :-). leaning to yes but I don't think this solves the core issue for us yet...


Great discussion!

Robin


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